Sustaining Education Leaders of Color
Danny Torres in Conversation with Dr. Erin Browder.
Dr. Erin Browder:
I hope that after engaging in this conversation, folks that are listening are thinking about the systemic work that needs to be done as well because it is not just left to the principal to figure out how she can decompress and do self care. There are real systemic gaps and challenges that will continuously make her job unbearable. And so, what can we do to lighten that load, to mitigate some of those barriers? That’s really the call to action.
Danny Torres:
Welcome to Leading Voices, a podcast brought to you by WestEd, a national non-profit, non-partisan research development and service agency. This podcast highlights WestEd’s leading voices, shaping innovations and developing equity-driven supports for schools and communities across the country. My name is Danny Torres. I’ll be your host.
Danny Torres:
Today, we’re here with Dr. Erin Browder. Dr. Browder provides technical assistance and project design for K-12 initiatives relating to trauma informed topics, school improvement, systems change, leadership development, social emotional learning, and culturally responsive, and equity-centered approaches that foster safe and supportive schools. She also works for the National Center to Improve Social and Emotional Learning and School Safety, and for a number of federally funded projects at WestEd. Our focus for today’s episode, sustaining educational leaders of color. Dr. Broader, it’s great to have you with us.
Dr. Erin Browder:
Thank you. I’m happy to be here, Danny.
Danny Torres:
Now, before we dive into today’s topic, let our listeners know how you came to this work.
Dr. Erin Browder:
I started my teaching career in an elementary classroom in East Harlem, New York City before returning home to Los Angeles, which is my home, where I worked in comprehensive middle and high schools as a school improvement facilitator. And that work in particular, I would say, led me on the path to where I am today. As a school improvement facilitator, I had no idea what I was being tasked with. I thought my work was simply providing professional development so that educators could better support the needs of students. And what I learned was so much more. It exposed me to the different ways that school sites are impacted by systems, systems’ policies, and even in particular, the role of the principal.
Dr. Erin Browder:
As a school improvement facilitator, I had a tangential role to the school leadership team. And there, I was able to see the particular needs and challenges of school leaders that they face, both as individuals and then as a member of a larger system. It led me to some essential questions that I continue to look for answers today, and that is, how do we hold our systems accountable? How do we monitor the ways that our systems are causing harm? And what can we do to mitigate that impact and to create systems that actually fulfill the promises that they’ve been tasked with? And so, providing safe and supporting learning spaces for our students and the adults that serve them is a critical part of my work. And then, how do we support our leaders who support those adults?
Danny Torres:
Now, the pandemic surfaced enduring systemic problems. Some of your recent work sheds light on some of this and on challenges related to sustaining education leaders, particularly education leaders of color. Can you first talk a little bit about this idea of shifting focus from retaining educators to sustaining educators?
Dr. Erin Browder:
Sure. I would first offer an invitation for all of us to pause and just really ponder the definition of retain versus sustain, right? So when we think of the terms retain, we’re thinking of keeping, holding in place, protecting, safeguarding, retaining, retention. So let’s hold that in one hand. And then, on the other hand, when we think of the term sustain, we have a much softer response. It’s almost physical that we can feel more open hearted and open minded about the different ways that we can support and really resource our educators and leaders of color in particular. And I name that because there’s pretty consistent rhetoric around the retention of leaders of color. I will say that retention can feel like it’s objectifying educators, it’s objectifying leaders of color. And sustaining opens us up to a space where we’re nurturing, we’re supporting, we’re watering, and really growing the talent that comes from our educators and leaders of color. And so, that’s the space that we want to be, especially if we want them to create that environment for our students and those learning conditions for our students.
Danny Torres:
My sense is that this idea of sustaining educators is empowering, and I really, really appreciate it. What sort of challenges do teachers and leaders of color face on the daily? Can you offer some examples for our listeners?
Dr. Erin Browder:
There’s two key players here. We have our systems. And so, our systems, those are these larger entities that we report to, that we engage within, that we take direction from, that we feel supported by. And then we have our interpersonal relationships. So on a school site, that could be between teachers, that could be between a leader and a teacher, so on, so forth. At a school site, a leader is tasked with enforcing systemic policies at the school level, as our teachers as well. In both of these, as individuals and as systems, we all hold accountability to creating climates that educators and leaders of color can thrive.
Dr. Erin Browder:
Bringing it back to where we’re focused on, our systems more often than not, are informed by a white dominant culture. What does that mean? What does it look like? That means the culture of perfectionism, the worship of the written word. These are widely held understandings of the ways that we are impacted by whiteness on the daily. And it doesn’t require white folks to enforce white dominant culture. In many ways, it lives inside of all of us in the ways that we relate and connect to each other into the world. Race is prominent, but it is not the only way that we experience culture and identities in our systems. And so, when we’re investigating as a system, when we’re examining the ways that we’re causing harm, there’s questions that we ask ourselves of, who’s being excluded? Who’s being harmed? Who’s being included? Who’s shaping the policies? Who’s deciding where resources and monies go? And those are systemic conversations that we all are a part of, whether we know it or not. And on the individual level, the ways that we are showing respect and trust to each other.
Dr. Erin Browder:
So thinking of particular examples, leaders of color observe different challenges or conflicts on their campus. They report it to districts and they’re dismissed. These are general understandings that have been imparted on me from folks that I work with in the field. So feeling like your concerns are dismissed, feeling that your values aren’t shared by the larger system, feeling passed up that you’re not getting opportunities or authentic, meaningful support, feeling like the support that you are getting is actually causing you more harm.
Dr. Erin Browder:
Some leaders of color report that their supervisors, their principal supervisors or folks who are mentoring them, either from the district, sometimes districts hire out, are actually us surveilling them, that they’re being overly monitored and policed about their language, and their actions, and they’re behaviors. They’re being questioned publicly. Someone confided in me that their principal supervisor is at their campus so often that the kids are like, “Is everything okay?”
Dr. Erin Browder:
This idea of understanding the challenges requires uplifting the voices of those who are the most impacted. So we need to be doing empathy interviews, if you want to throw a TA, a technical assistance term there, or literally just talking and having open conversations and asking questions about ways that school leaders are feeling under supported and unseen in their districts.
Dr. Erin Browder:
Another thing that I hear are folks feel underappreciated and uncelebrated. So these are people that are carrying… All principles right now, inclusive of race and gender, and sexual orientation, and ability, everyone is really experiencing a tumultuous time. During the pandemic, post-pandemic, principals were the folks that were in the school site at the beginning of the pandemic, even once the school’s closed. They have never stopped going. And for principals of color, that’s in addition to the different tasks that they’ve been given, where often they feel like they’re doing more than their peers.
Dr. Erin Browder:
And so, that might mean emotional support to your teachers. That might mean individual reaching out to parents and families. That might mean following up on a complaint that was made by a student against a teacher. So there’s all these little tasks. It’s not that these tasks are specific for education leaders of color, it’s that they’re all happening at the same time and that there’s very little relief. And that when we start to examine the roles of our systems and the culture that they’re upholding, there’s people that feel most supported, and those are people who have the identities that are celebrated and that are embraced by that dominant culture.
Dr. Erin Browder:
When we think about our systems and holding them accountable, it falls on the shoulders of our leaders of color in most cases when the systems are not doing the things that they’re supposed to do because our leaders of color are being uber resourceful, making sure they’re either outsourcing the translation needs or they’re doing it themselves. They’re staying late. And again, I’ve worked with white female principles. I’ve worked with male principles, male principles of different colors, and there are some unique challenges that I see across those identities. And we’re not saying that folks aren’t doing one or some of these, but not all at the same time, typically, how our ed leaders of color are experiencing it.
Danny Torres:
Can you describe the conditions of the schools leaders of color are often assigned to?
Dr. Erin Browder:
There is research that shows that a majority of leaders of color are placed in high needs schools. And so, for all of us that are working in this space, we already have an understanding. It might be minimal. It might be a large understanding of what a high need school requires of a school leader. And I’ll say, I have a colleague who shared with me about the high need school that she was placed in where she says, “Erin, everything was high needs in that school, the literal building, the teachers, the students, the parents, the community.” And that she was so exhausted every day that even hugging kids was tiring. Honestly, I feel like my eyes are blowing up. That is such a hard truth to acknowledge, that hugging and being in relationship with kids is what is rewarding and what restores us. But in a space where you’re constantly operating in a depleted fashion, where things are always at their point of falling apart, at what point do you give in? At what point do you tap out?
Dr. Erin Browder:
And I’ll offer this as well, just bringing this back to what we talked about before. Again, what are the systemic accountabilities? Because this leader of color, a multiracial woman, was not pointing fingers at the school community, or the teachers, or the students. She, if anything, felt that she couldn’t keep up with the demand of the work, which is heartbreaking on another level too. But what did her system, what her district put into place to support her being there and support the needs of the individuals in that space? And oftentimes, we’re pointing fingers at individuals, and there’s some systemic responsibilities and change that needs to occur to better support the school sites and then, obviously, the ways that our district and central offices are ran and the policies that we’re enacting.
Danny Torres:
So what kind of support can we provide? What does your work look like? And how can we make change, how can we make systemic change?
Dr. Erin Browder:
Well, hold on. Let me get my magic wand out of my bag.
Danny Torres:
Yes, if it could be that simple. Yes.
Dr. Erin Browder:
Research shows that it takes four to seven years for systemic change to fully form and really start to have that promise of sustainability, which feels like it’s working against us, given the terms of superintendents and just the shifts in curriculum and different ways that the outside world and state policies impact what’s happening in a single classroom. As someone who’s been engaged in this work for well over 10 years, the first truth, the universal truth that I think I named already is the answers are in the room. So as we’re identifying solutions, speaking to those who are most impacted are going to be the puzzle pieces, we need to help us define what solutions or strategies are going to be the most effective. And so, that means, again, open hearted, open-minded, interviewing, asking people questions, reserving judgment, and also having a core group of partners who are down for the cause, that are completely engaged, who understand that there will be moments of discomfort, but have committed to the vision, a shared vision.
Dr. Erin Browder:
So you’re not just promoting one person’s individual agenda, but there’s a collective identity and multiple people are holding it. When you have a group of people, oftentimes, for this work, this equitable systems change. Work, you are called to the table and you’re working with the group that has been going in circles, and they’re not finding their way through. And so, making sure that they’re anchored in whatever this shared vision is, and then building some shared understanding and language so that they can engage and understand that when I use the term equity and you use the term equity, we mean the same thing. And so, making what’s unknown known as a group.
Dr. Erin Browder:
Building a culture that sustains leaders of color is a systemic effort. It is not the work of one person. That’s also why, when that one person leaves, the work leaves. It has to live in that space. It’s really important to have a trusted partner. And oftentimes that’s someone who does not come from the system, but someone who values obviously the system partners as partners, as collaborators, as co-developers, and co-conspirators in the larger work that y’all are engaging in. So it’s not just me coming and supplanting and having my agenda, this is the one, two, three step way that you’re going to solve this challenge. No. It is a multi-step process, and it needs to have legs or connectors to different folks that are experiencing this problem.
Dr. Erin Browder:
Why does it matter in your district that leaders of color are healthy and they’re sustained? What does it look like, feel like, sound like when leaders of color are healthy and sustained? And what we’ll find is that our white leaders are also likely not sustained as well. And so, when we center this group that has perhaps in most cases experience the most inequities, everyone will benefit from that attention and that work that’s being done.
Danny Torres:
So it’s not coming in with scripts, and surveys, and tools. You’re really getting to know the people that you’re working with. It’s a very, very human process. I wonder who you start with. Do you start with the superintendent? Do you start with the school board? How does that work?
Dr. Erin Browder:
Yeah. I mean, I think it’s different for different projects, of course. And so, in some cases, we’ve had superintendents, assistant superintendents who come to us that are stewarding this work or tasked with facilitating it by their board. And other places we have directors or superintendents of equity who are also looking for some additional support because, even in those roles, they’re feeling isolated or just not supported or heard as they’re advocating for different things. And it comes down to mobilizing groups of people.
Danny Torres:
And the people you’re working with, they bring their own trauma. They bring their own personal experiences to the work. So while changing the system, there also has to be, in my mind, some individual supports that help the leaders you’re working with. Right?
Dr. Erin Browder:
Definitely. Those safeguards are critical, not just for burnout. Students benefit from healthy and thriving adults, from cultural awareness and culturally affirming environments. And I really embrace the conversation around culturally affirming environment. It’s also language that’s starting to be used more in the recruitment of a diverse workforce because it’s very proactive.
Danny Torres:
Well, Dr. Browder, it’s been a real pleasure talking with you today. Are there any last thoughts you’d like to share with our audience?
Dr. Erin Browder:
Yes, I have several, but I’m just going to share a couple. The first is, after you’ve listened to this podcast, do a stock take. Who are you in relationship with? Who might very little about? Especially thinking about our educators, our education leaders of color, how might you deepen your relationship or connection to them in a way that feels sincere and not forced? On a larger systemic level, creates space for your ed leaders of color colleagues to share and inform conversations or to drive conversations in spaces where they’ve typically been silenced or silent. Look for opportunities to engage and invite folks to collaborate who offer different perspectives in ways that don’t tokenize them, but also listen to their solutions as well as their experiences and their pain points.
Dr. Erin Browder:
But I hope that after engaging in this conversation, folks that are listening are thinking about the systemic work that needs to be done as well because it is not just left to the principal to figure out how she can decompress and do self care. There are real systemic gaps and challenges that will continuously make her job unbearable. And so, what can we do to lighten that load, to mitigate some of those barriers? That’s really the call to action. And even as we engage in conversations about wellbeing, we have to have a systemic lens and not only focus on the individual themselves. I would say there’s a group that does that really well, the Center for Black Educator Development, that offers strategies of support for individuals, but then also call in to question different systemic practices that are working against the wellbeing and the success of the folks on the ground.
Danny Torres:
Great. Yeah. Yeah. We’ll put a link to their website in the show notes. Are there any other resources you could recommend to our listeners?
Dr. Erin Browder:
Yeah. I mean, we have a few here at WestEd. Just to name some, the first podcast with Christina Pate, talking about educator wellbeing. There’s definitely application for the leader context as well. We have resources that have been published through the SEL Center that definitely fall in line with doing this work, both on a systems and individual level. The work of my colleague David Lopez and John Jacobs on the systemic equity reviews. The systemic equity reviews are great tools to better understand where a district starting point is. And so, having that data in front of you tells a story, and it helps to build the understanding of equity in a particular place. That’s an important resource.
Danny Torres:
Great. Thank you. Yeah, we’ll put links to Christina’s conversation, to the Cell Center website, and to the Systemic Equity Review webpage in this episode’s show notes. Dr. Browder, thank you very, very much for taking the time out of your busy schedule to talk with me today. And thank you very much for your leadership in this work. Where can our listeners find you online?
Dr. Erin Browder:
Listeners can contact me on my WestEd bio page. They can also find me on Twitter, @erintheeducator. And that’s E-R-I-N, and then the educator after is my handle.
Danny Torres:
Great. We’ll put a link to your bio and your Twitter handle in the show notes as well. Again, thank you very, very much. And thanks to our listeners for joining us.
Danny Torres:
All the resources mentioned in this podcast will be available online at www.wested.org/leadingvoicespodcast, or in the show notes on Apple Podcast, Google Podcast, Stitcher, and Spotify. For more information about WestEd’s systemic equity review services, visit us online at www.wested.org/ser.
Danny Torres:
This podcast is brought to you by WestEd, a national non-profit, non-partisan research development and service agency. At WestEd, we believe that learning changes lives. Every day, we partner with schools and communities across the country to improve outcomes for youth and adults of all ages. Today’s episode focused on one really important facet of the work that we do at WestEd, and I encourage you to visit us at www.wested.org to learn more. And a special thanks to Tanisha Bell, Content Manager for the Leading Voices Podcast. And to Sanjay Pardanani, our audio producer. Join us next time on the Leading Voices Podcast. Thank you very much. Until next time.