Tribal Data Collection and Governance: Principles of Practice and Partnerships Session 1
Facilitators: April Kateri Chavez and Daphne Littlebear
Malachy McCormick:
Excellent; we’re seeing some responses start to come through and populate. Information is a common one. Story, growth, self-determination, sovereignty, quantify, knowledge, people. Opportunity, power, and knowledge are really big ones—story, information. Power, numbers, story, information, and sovereignty seem to be some of our really, really big ideas and words or phrases that come to mind when we think about data. Excellent. Thank you so much, everyone, for participating in that. Really appreciate it. Pass it over to my colleague, April.
April Kateri Chavez:
Thank you, Malachy. And thank you everyone for participating in our word-cloud activity. Today, we are launching a two-part webinar series, Tribal Data Collection and Governance, Session 1, Principles of Practice and Partnerships. I’d firstly like to begin by saying that we are recording today’s session for the purposes of uploading the recording to the WEEAC website for future viewing, especially for those who couldn’t join us today. Hello, good afternoon, good morning to you all. My name is April Kateri Chavez. I just introduced myself by sharing my clans in both my Navajo and Keres languages. From my mother, I am Within His Cover and Mexican Clan, and I am also from Kewa Pueblo, the Fox Clan. I’m a Tribal Systems Program Associate here at WestEd, and I am happy to welcome you all today and serve as one of your facilitators. Daphne?
Daphne Littlebear:
Good morning, everyone. Good afternoon. My name’s Daphne Littlebear, and I am the Research and Evaluation Manager with the National Indian Education Association. And very excited that you guys are all here to join us for this very important discussion and work that we are lifting.
April Kateri Chavez:
Thank you, Daphne. So, this series is co-sponsored by Region 15 and 13 Comprehensive Centers and the Western Educational Equity Assistance Center, who serve the Western states and territories highlighted on the maps. Together, these federally funded centers provide technical assistance, professional learning, research, and evidence-based practices to state and local education agencies to better serve all students. We are going to post a link in the chat to the survey early in today’s convenings because our goal is to hear from all of you. This is our first session in our two-part series and we want to make sure that we’re responsive and hearing from you all and your perspectives, and this will help inform our next session. So, thank you in advance for completing our survey. I’d like to invite our co-sponsors to introduce themselves and share a little about their amazing work that they’re doing on behalf of Native students within their own organizations. So, I’d like to welcome our first partner, the National Indian Education Association, Casie Wise.
Casie Wise:
Hi, good afternoon, everyone. Or I guess good morning, depending on where you are joining from. I am Dr. Casie Wise, the Senior Program Director for the National Indian Education Association. Unfortunately, our executive director, Diana Cournoyer, is delayed during travel. She was supposed to do just this welcome and greeting, but has requested that I represent on her behalf, and I do not take that request lightly. And I’m really honored to be in this space with you all. I know that you’re here because you seek to amplify your impact on Native education, especially as we’re growing understanding and growing our embodiment in the space of data sovereignty. So since NIEA’s founding in 1969, we have fiercely advocated to improve the learning opportunities for our Native communities.
We firmly believe in the use of traditional knowledge and language as the foundation and the medium of learning. And we continue to promote education sovereignty in everything that we do, which is why we’re really excited to be here and be a part of this partnership. Despite the slow progress that you know, collectively, we have seen in Native education in the past 100 years, NIEA firmly believes that this has not been enough to change the narrative for our young people for our communities. It’s not been enough to grow a strong national workforce of Native educators and leaders in this space. It’s not been enough to really fully empower all of our tribal nations to control their own learning systems.
And for this reason, we are calling for a paradigm shift, an immediate change in how our learning systems are designed, managed, funded, and even evaluated, which is why we’re here today. This paradigm shift includes Native control of how and what data is collected, how students are evaluated. You know, data sovereignty is and must be a critical foundation to Native education to fully realize and enact education sovereignty. So, this is why NIEA has developed a research and evaluation department. It is led by Daphne Littlebear, who you just met. Her knowledge and experience has been critical to advancing our work in Indigenous research and data sovereignty, and again, why she’s here today. So you know, this year, NIEA will host our 55th Annual Convention and Trade Show in Palm Springs, California. This is from October 9th to 12th.
We invite you to join us. Our theme this year is “Education Sovereignty: A Declaration of Change.” We invite you to join us in this movement and this declaration. We appreciate that you are all here today to engage in a critical conversation on data sovereignty. I’m honored to hear from our panelists, Dr. Hollie Mackey and Jerad Koepp. I know they’re both strong advocates for Native education as well as just dear colleagues of NIEA. And I’ll close with a special thanks to you, Dr. Sandoval and April Chavez, and other partners at WestEd for really inviting us into this collaborative space and being a champion for this paradigm shift with us. So, thank you all.
April Kateri Chavez:
I appreciate that Dr. Wise. Thank you so much. Next, I like to invite Rebecca Rae from the University of New Mexico.
Rebecca Rae:
Good afternoon. Good morning. Yes, I guess all the different time zones. Thank you for the invitation to be here. My name is Rebecca Rae. I’m Jicarilla Apache from Northern New Mexico. I am a research lecturer in the College of Population Health here at the University of New Mexico and also the Associate Director for the Center for Participatory Research, particularly around Indigenous health and wellness efforts. One of my initiatives under our center is implementing and co-developing a tribal data champions fellowship, which is a year-long training program that really gets at what Dr. Wise was talking about. Our training is centered on growing our own, really training individuals in our tribal communities throughout New Mexico around data efforts, but really centering it in our own Indigenous ways of knowing.
That’s a key component of our year-long fellowship is that we’re training individuals on data practices, how to create data tools, how to implement data tools, and how to do reporting but really centered from an Indigenous framework, Indigenous knowledge systems, our own value systems, and really highlighting the importance and need for Indigenous data sovereignty and the protection of our data and using that as a way to tell our own stories and changing that narrative from our own perspectives and highlighting all of the changes that really happen within our communities from our own voice. And I’m really proud that Daphne and April have both been part of our tribal data champions fellows. Daphne was a fellow last year, and April is one of our current cohort fellows. And so I’m feeling pretty excited that they’ve been able to come together and really organize this amazing webinar to really discuss the importance of tribal data collection efforts. And I think that’s the big intention behind our training is this is what we want.
We want to continue to share that knowledge, continue to share ways of our learnings, and that we learn from one another that we are the experts in our communities, that we are the voices in our communities, and that we can be the voices that share that amongst one another and be the voices to continue to uplift one another. So, really honored to be here and to learn from all of you. Thank you.
April Kateri Chavez:
Thank you so much, Rebecca. And thank you to Dr. Wise for introducing yourselves, and thank you to all of our wonderful co-sponsors who made this webinar possible. So, we definitely encourage you to connect using these QR codes with all of our amazing partners. You can sign up for newsletters and follow for more events and more learning opportunities. So, all of their information is going to be uploaded into the Padlet if you don’t get the links. So, today’s key topics include defining what Indigenous data sovereignty and Indigenous data governance is and discussing how it shows up for our Indigenous educators and why it’s important. Our objectives throughout the session are to amplify innovative partnerships and practices, to exercise Indigenous data sovereignty and Indigenous data governance in education, as well as to highlight emerging and policy-level approaches to tribal data collection to improve student outcomes for American Indian, Alaska Native, and Native Hawaiian students.
This series is designed for state education leaders, tribal leaders, tribal education directors, the Bureau of Indian Education, and the Office of Indian Education. That being said, I can see that we have a very diverse group of people here today. So, for the folks who are joining us from outside of these spaces, we absolutely welcome you. As demonstrated in our word cloud today, data means a lot of different things and many different contexts, and issues around data directly affects all of our Native nations and beyond. And as Rebecca shared, we are absolutely stronger together. So, we welcome you all, and we thank you all for making the decision to be here today. For today’s agenda, we are going to hear from Ms. Daphne Littlebear. She’s going to provide a context framing. Following her conversation, we are going to hear from Dr. Michele Suina. She’s a member of the U.S. Indigenous Data Sovereignty Network. Following her presentation, we ask that you all join us in a self-facilitated breakout room.
We will be providing two guiding questions for your conversation. And again, this is an opportunity to connect and, share, and engage with your fellow colleagues. After the breakout room, we will come back together to a large group and open up with our panel discussion featuring two distinguished Indigenous educators—some housekeeping items. The chat box is enabled for you to engage with our speakers and with one another. Our colleagues, Ryan, Malachy, and Niki, are monitoring the chat. They can also offer some support should anything come up. And we are also keeping track of the questions that we will hopefully pose to our speakers, time permitting. We have developed a Padlet, and this is our online platform where you can find resources connected to today’s webinar, as well as Session 2, which is scheduled for May 22nd. Our content experts today will be referring to data networks, scholarship, information, and resources that can absolutely benefit your practice. And there’s the Padlet, and we also have a link in the chat. And so now I would like to pass it off to Ms. Daphne Littlebear.
Daphne Littlebear:
Thank you so much, April. I appreciate that. And so, I just wanted to start off with this education in America timeline, especially for American Indians, Alaska Natives, and, to a certain degree, Native Hawaiians. And so, I put this timeline up for a lot of my data discussions as a footing of what education look like for Native students. We start off with the Indian boarding schools, and really when we look at the Indian boarding schools, it was about surveillance. It was really about, you know, what Native student was literate, what Native student was not, and really like data surveillance. And so we’re looking to move from the origins of what the Indian boarding schools were. And so in doing so, you see a trend, not just the boarding schools, but you look at the Meriam Report, and many of us Native educators have read that report, overlooked the report in regards to what was the actual status of the boarding schools and you know, what was going on in the boarding schools. And then, we start seeing educational sovereignty in 1966 with the first Indian-controlled school.
And then we start moving into, again, additional data collection, data reports. And then, we move into the seventies, right after NCAI or the National Congress of American Indians and the National Indian Education Association, with the advocacy work with the Self-Determination Assistance Act, with the Language Revitalization Act, with the Esther Martinez-Native American Language Preservation Act. And so we’re in the time of tribal consultation, strengthening tribal consultation as we move out of the global pandemic. And so, we’re really looking to affirm what does data sovereignty look like in Native education spaces. And so, next slide. So right now, currently on the left-hand side are all the different data sets that are collected in Native education. We have the Early Head Start, we have the National Assessment on Educational Progress, we have Bureau of Indian Education and their assessments, we have state assessments, and then we have youth risk behavior and surveillance system, and we have IPEDS, the Integrated Postsecondary Educational Data System.
And I want to highlight AIHEC; they’re the only Native-led organization that has their own Native-led database that oversees the tribal colleges and universities and the National Student Clearinghouse. And on the right-hand side, you’ll see it correspond with the different agencies of which these data sets are housed under. And so when we move into these conversations, I want us to imagine and manifest like what would data sovereignty look like when it is governed by Native organizations, by Native tribes, by Native-serving schools, tribally controlled schools. What would data look like? Next slide. Looking at the state reports on Native student achievement data, these are the disaggregated data sets that are currently being shared out by state.
We have Arizona, California, Minnesota, Nevada, New Mexico, Oregon, Washington, and Idaho. And so, these are the current states that are working to disaggregate some of that student achievement data. And we are definitely advocating with other states to also follow in this lead and what does this look like, but also working with tribal governments and looking at data-sharing agreements, which we’ll get more into in our discussions. So, I want to pause there, and I want to go ahead and introduce Dr. Michele Suina from Cochiti Pueblo. She is a program director with the Albuquerque Area Southwest Tribal Epidemiology Center. And she will go ahead and dive deeper into the discussion around Indigenous data sovereignty and governance. So, I want to turn it over to Dr. Suina. Thank you for joining us today, Dr. Suina.
Michele Suina:
Well, thank you so much for the invitation. I am happy to be here today and just grateful to see this conversation happening because it is really a critical conversation that we all need to be a part of. Yeah, just briefly, my name is Michele, and I’m from Cochiti Pueblo. I was very fortunate to be raised in my Pueblo, and you know, just with my upbringing helped me to look at data in a different way than the typical data that you see when it comes to external agencies defining for us what that data needs to look like. So, what I hope to achieve today, my goals for this presentation is to briefly discuss what is Indigenous data sovereignty and then also what is Indigenous data governance. And then also get us to start thinking about what is needed to support Indigenous data governance. And so I do work with the U.S. Indigenous Data Sovereignty Network, I’m a member. And so the network is helping to ensure that data for and about Indigenous nations and peoples in the United States are utilized to advance Indigenous aspirations for collective and individual wellbeing. And so when we think about data, how is it really going to be used for nation-building? How is it going to benefit our people? And I did put the website address here on this slide.
You can see that there will be an upcoming U.S. Indigenous Data Sovereignty Summit that is happening in April. And so, you know, there are so many resources that have been provided by the network that I think it’s a really good group to be affiliated with because there is, you know, just a network of individuals who are working in different capacities, whether it’s in education, whether it is in the health field like me, maybe in economic development. It’s just a multidisciplinary group of data warriors that are a part of this network. Okay. And if you can go to the next slide. And so when we look at what is Indigenous data sovereignty, you know, it’s still relatively a new term that was introduced in 2015, but really, Indigenous peoples have always been data collectors and knowledge holders. They also have asserted their Indigenous sovereign rights when it comes to their information and controlling information and how it’s shared. And I think about where I come from in my own community, just even when you drive into the village, you see signs that indicate like no picture-taking, no recording. So, that is a real assertion of sovereignty and governance over their own information. But really, when we talk about Indigenous data sovereignty, it is the right of Indigenous peoples and nations to govern the collection, ownership, and application of their own data. And basically, it is really relocating authority over data back to Indigenous peoples and nations. And really, this is a critical step for changing our learning systems.
It really has to be a part of that paradigm shift that was discussed earlier on. And so really, when we look at Indigenous data sovereignty, this is really coming from the inherent rights of Indigenous nations to govern their people’s lands and resources. And this applies to their data, their information as well. And this is really rooted in traditions, roles, and responsibilities for the use of community-held information. I had already discussed an example of what this looks like in my own community for people entering our tribe. And also this is positioned with a human rights framework and court cases, treaties, and other recognitions. And more specifically, this is supported by the United Nations Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples. And so, you know, this movement has been, to me, just such a change in terms of how we’re interacting with external entities who do have our information, our data, who collect information about our people. And then, finally, knowledge really does belong to the collective and is fundamental to who we are as peoples. And so when we think about, you know, what are we talking about when it comes to Indigenous data sovereignty, it really is tribal Indigenous control of their information. So, if we can move to the next slide. And then, Indigenous data sovereignty really happens through Indigenous data governance.
And I love this definition because it just makes it clear what are we talking about when we talk about governing information or data. And really, “Indigenous data governance is decision-making. It is the power to decide how and when Indigenous data are gathered, analyzed, accessed, and used.” And so, I think oftentimes, especially in some of the work that I have done working with universities and external researchers, there seems to be this idea that we’re going to start talking about data sovereignty when data is going to be shared. But really, it needs to be looked at from the very beginning when studies are being conceptualized, when partnerships are being built so that tribal interests are being represented and whatever information is being gathered. Are the questions being asked appropriate? Is this something that is going to benefit tribal nations? Is there going to be any negative impact generated from collecting certain information? Will it stigmatize a certain group of people? And so really thinking about tribes having that right to be at the table to make decisions over what their data will look like and how it will be used is such a critical part in, you know, data collection. And so, I know Daphne invited us to imagine what would data look like if it were governed by tribes. And I think it would definitely look different compared to some of the deficit-based data that we typically see. And it would better align with what do we or how do we define education. What does this look like in our own tribal communities, and does it really reflect, you know, who our children are and what their potential is? And right now, if you look at data as it is, it is just the typical blameworthy aggregate deficit-based data that doesn’t really tell who our children are, our students are. And so, let’s move to the next slide. I just also wanted to share just some international resources. Also, the Global Indigenous Data Alliance is a wonderful group to be affiliated with.
This is a group of international data warriors who also, in their respective nations are working to promote Indigenous control over Indigenous data. And so I just wanted to point out if you go to their website, gida-global.org,- global.org, you will find resources available that would be helpful for the work that you are doing. And having more people be aware of what is being developed, I think, helps make the case at the local level because there are lots of minds, hearts, spirits that are going into changing the narrative when it comes to data control. Okay, go to the next slide. And one example I wanted to put out as more reason is defining Indigenous peoples’ rights in data. And so you can see here that there have been rights that have been articulated by GIDA and scholars who have been affiliated, tribal leaders, and advocates that really look at the rights associated to data for governance. And so, really, it’s data for decision-making. And then also governance of data. It’s again, being at the table, being involved in decisions related to Indigenous data. And I’m not going to go into great detail. You could go to the website and read the article associated with these rights that are on the screen. And I believe that is all I had time to share today, but I just want to see is there still time for questions?
April Kateri Chavez:
So now we are going to move into breakout rooms. So, for the next 10 minutes, we will go into self-facilitated breakout discussions. We invite you to stay on for the breakout sessions. Again, this is an opportunity to introduce yourselves, reflect on today’s conversation, and share with your colleagues. We encourage you to share contact information to build further connections. So again, these breakout rooms are self-led. There will not be a facilitator in the room, but please join on even if you intend to only listen. We are going to be using the Padlet tool today, and I’m going to provide a really quick demonstration. So this is what the Padlet tool looks like. So the instructions are going to introduce yourself, share your name and your agency, designate one person to serve as the scribe on the Padlet tool, and please respond to two of our questions. Our instructions are going to be added into the chat. And the two questions are “What are some of the challenges your agency, district, or tribes are facing related to Native student data as well as data sovereignty?”
And secondly, “What opportunities do you see to foster partnerships to address these challenges?” So, you can go and click the plus button, and this is what will populate. And you can feel free to add a title. You don’t necessarily need to. This is the body, and you can add comments here. And once you’re done responding to the question, you press “publish,” and it will populate here. So again, you just click there. So, we will be placing you into breakout rooms, and we welcome the discussion. For your engagement with one another, we looked at the Padlet and it was so beautiful to see everyone’s engagement and responses. I really appreciate that. So, I’m happy to introduce our two panelists. Today, we welcome Hollie Mackey as well as Jerad Koepp. Unfortunately, due to unforeseen circumstances, Dr. Alex Red Corn is unable to attend today, but that’s okay ’cause we have a stellar panel ready for us today. So, Daphne, if you wouldn’t mind kicking off with our questions.
Daphne Littlebear:
Yes, I can kick off with the questions. Thank you so much, Dr. Mackey and Mr. Koepp, for joining us today. I’m really excited for this discussion. So our first question is, “In your respective states, what does exercising Indigenous data sovereignty and governance look like?” “How does that show up in your work?” And I’m going to go ahead and put that question in the chat as well.
Hollie J. Mackey:
Well, since I’m not Alex and I’m not in Kansas, I don’t have the success story perhaps that he would’ve shared. So I’ll just go ahead and let Jerad start.
Jerad Koepp:
Okay, do this. Hey, it’s good to see everyone. Yeah, I’m ready to try to make the world a better place in four-minute chunks. Let’s get into it. So, what does exercising data sovereignty look like? Well, I kind of want to go a little bit big with this idea. Being Native is exercising data sovereignty. Our very existence is a resistance and refusal of the erasure that so many of the systems and policies have been put into place to deny. And when you have that erasure, you can absolve yourself of the underwhelming use of resources, of attention. You can label people statistically insignificant. And you know, one of the pushbacks on that, it’s like when you look at data, like when I look at data in our district, I see those kids, I know those faces.
I hear that laughter. I know who their people are. And so, it’s really important that a big part of exercising data sovereignty is humanizing it. It’s about personifying all of those data points on any sort of chart that we have, realizing that we’re talking about people and experiences. And ultimately, that story that we’re trying to live in together, we’re trying to co-create, is one built on an impact that doesn’t always have like a big waiting resolution, just like our traditional stories, you know. Like, there’s a story in there and we have to kind of figure out what that means for us at any given time. But in the state, you know, we have 29 federally recognized tribes. And I think the way that data sovereignty is exercised is representative of so many of the ways that today and our ancestors have long exercised this form of multilingualism, of knowing like our neighboring tribe’s languages, of learning this Indigenous language of English, and that data is a language in itself.
And to be able to be proficient in it also lends itself to an additional layer of two-eyed seeing. So how can we communicate and operate proficiently in both worlds so that nations can operate the day-to-day business of governance from everything from gaming to infrastructure, economic development, and partnership with municipalities and state and federal governments to determining the health of salmon populations and how long a salmon run is going to be any given season. But it also shows up in my work every day ’cause I’m always trying to find students to check in on, to connect with, to find their schedules. Like data is a big way for us to connect and rejoin our communities; it’s reconnecting, and we’re finding each other and building communities through all of our history of diaspora. And in our district, we have students from over 55 tribes, nations, and bands. And it’s an opportunity for us to find them, but also an opportunity for us to bring them together. And as we get into that data, what we’re doing is we are finding new challenges as our district has really committed itself to maximum representation. So, we’re trying to create an accurate image.
And one of the things that we’re seeing each day as we assert our presence in data, as we try to find all of our kiddos, is that sometimes when we run the data, it challenges the dominant narrative that Native people are at the maximum at-risk category in just about anything that you name. And so as we’re creating better data studies, we are starting to see, like, wow, in several grades, our students are actually outperforming non-Native students. Or now that we have an accurate sense of what an “N” number is, then we can actually pinpoint an individual student need because maybe that grade only has three or four Native students, and now we can focus on that individualized support. So it’s, you know, day-to-day, it’s lived, it’s who we are, and it’s always about family.
Daphne Littlebear:
Yeah. Thank you so much for that, Jerad. Just recently, I had an opportunity to visit a Native Hawaiian immersion school, and I got to witness a lesson plan on the Aina where the children were restoring fish ponds, and they were reading the old archives of the printing press and discovered that there were over 500 fishnets that their ancestors made. And now they’re recreating those fishnets using geometry, using measurements, using their old ancestral technology and reconstructing what this looks like using geometry and measurements and even doing statistical analysis around anticipation. Like if they were to do this, what does that look like restoration for the land? So it is possible, it is a lot of work, and it’s not just in-the-classroom work; it’s also very land-based curriculum as well in connecting that scaffolding lessons that is passed down to generations. So, thank you. Thank you, Jerad.
Hollie J. Mackey:
Yeah, and you know, I would echo that, right? I think Jerad really has an eloquent way of putting together like the purpose the story, and I think it is about the people. And so in my role, you know, I do a lot with research, I do a lot with data collection, I do a lot with the federal agencies with National Science Foundation and Institute of Educational Sciences. And so from our perspective, I think I would extend what Jerad has said to really think about the ways that data sovereignty is an extension of relationships that should exist prior to engaging in work with tribal communities. And I think that that’s something that we’ve really been working hard on in the Great Plains region, is helping particularly non-tribal entities understand that when you’re using Indigenous data for your DEIA checkbox or whatever, you know, it might be that’s not enough. And our tribes don’t need you, right? Our tribal colleges don’t need you.
Our tribal students don’t need you. And so, the way that I see this really playing out in my work is about helping to build those relationships that can foster nation-building that is driven by the Indigenous lens as opposed to having non-Native entities come in and say, we want to do this project, here’s this money. So we’re starting on the back end of thinking through like, if, in fact, you’re going to be utilizing our data, asking the questions to begin with “How are you using it?” “How is it going to be analyzed?” “What role do we play in this?” And bringing tribal communities in on the front end to be a part of research design and program execution and initiatives as opposed to just having them being recipients of. And so that’s been really important to think about because for me, that’s an exercise of sovereign power in and of itself. To be able to say, “We don’t need you.” Right? We would love to help you, and if you are interested in learning more about Indigenous lifeways, if you’re interested in Indigenous knowledges, then this is a way that we can collaborate together. But I think that there’s a distinct empowerment in recognizing Indigenous data sovereignty as a way to combat exploitation, as a way to tell stories in the ways that they should be told. And really to force people to engage with us in the ways that we engage with one another on that relationship level, on those levels of, you know, perhaps we’re not going to work together now, perhaps we’re getting to know each other, right?
And maybe we’ll work together in the future. But I think it’s been really a model for non-Native communities to think about the ways that relationship drive innovation, drive change, and drive progress. And so while we can all say we have not made the progress that we wanted to see, right? In terms of Native education, going back into the introduction, Dr. Wise, I think Daphne gave an excellent example of how shifting the ways we’re thinking about it and shifting about the ways that we are willing to engage with communities who do not respect data sovereignty can really make a difference. And if you seek out those people who are willing to engage with you in authentic, genuine ways, right, and allow Indigenous knowledges to drive the train, I think that that’s the one of the biggest flexes on data sovereignty that we have as Native Nations today.
April Kateri Chavez:
Thank you so much. So you are sharing that we are guided by our traditional knowledge systems, and we’re building as we go absolutely and bringing up all of the people around us. So, thank you for your leadership. My next question is “What has helped you in this process guide your learning and practices?” Maybe starting with Jerad, can you offer a few examples?
Jerad Koepp:
Well, at the risk of getting real Native here, really it’s my culture, it’s my ancestors, it’s my commitment to all of the future generations. The interesting thing about like data sovereignty, and Daphne alluded to this excellently, is we have always been fascinated with data. We have always been researchers, but time and time again, the non-Native world takes our brilliance and our data and looks at it as if it’s unintelligible because in many ways, it is unrecognizable because with our data come cultural responsibilities, a sense of reciprocity, a sense of commitment, a sense of holism, that is part of how we learn through observation, and we use that data to make sustainable decisions with information and accountability to the entire community. And, you know, we have a lot to give credit to all of our Native data and research warriors who have been just continually expanding this incredible body of work about the significance and the impact and the world that is being revealed as more and more people learn about data sovereignty and Native data.
But while that helps us, like that helps folks like me, you know, like the moccasins on the ground, as they say, like open doors, start conversations, and get buy-in, really, like a lot of that research and all of those white papers is for non-Native people to understand a language and to almost accommodate their privilege, right? Like we will only engage in a conversation unless you do it our way. But something that we’ve learned from our ancestors is we’ve always been really good at adapting that and using that for social justice and for our own liberations. Like, okay, we’ll say it your way and then we’ll bring you into our world and you’d be like, “Oh my gosh, this is common sense.” It’s like, “Yeah, we’ve been trying to tell you that for 500 years.” So there’s lots of great work being done. And I think reconstituting the whole of our traditional practices with modern data collection and that is like contemporary Native research as well as how we’re authentically and responsibly combining that with Western systems of data for our own individual, like, sovereign goal, but also how those stories are really starting to hit people that when you support Native issues, you support Native education and Native data, it benefits every single person, every single community, and all of our other than human relatives as well. It’s just great for everyone.
And so the examples that I would add will be, first, if you’re interested in learning more, just like a good place to start is start reading on Indigenous research methodologies. You’ll get all sorts of inspiration. The way that we tend to write about data in research tends to be a lot more accessible because why does it have to be so obscure? You can learn a lot of great tips as you do that pre-work. Like Hollie was saying, you kind of hit the pre-reqs before you start going into conversations. But we’re already starting to see in our district that the more work that we do with data, the more conversations that we can have with tribes, the more meaningful projects we can focus on, the bigger and clearer picture we can have on where we want to go, not just as we collaborate, but as we come together to co-manage our most valuable resource, which is our children’s education. So the data can help us improve systems, but it can also help us envision brighter futures and build capacity along the way.
Hollie J. Mackey:
I should have never said like, “You go first, Jerad,” ’cause now I’m going to have to follow you on every question. But you know, again, echoing, right? And I think, you know, everybody on this is probably of a similar mindset and I think it’s worth repeating, right? Even though we are sometimes preaching to the choir on webinars such as this. But in terms of what has helped my learning the most, right, and the practices I put into would extend that because I do believe that our children are our most valuable resource. But this idea of data sovereignty, I can remember when these conversations really started happening when I was early in my career as a teacher. And so in that context, it’s a relatively newer way of thinking about how to exercise sovereignty. And the scholars who have pushed this, I think have done a remarkable job in helping us understand the power behind data, and it’s a steep learning curve. So I think that what has guided my learning the most, one is definitely reading, right? How people conceptualize methodologies and doing it to the degree that I’ve stopped essentializing and have been able to create a language around that where there isn’t an Indigenous methodology. There are multiple myriad ways to think about it. Just like there are myriad Western ways of thinking about methodology.
And I think being able to then communicate those in non-Native spaces has been helpful. Because I think the second piece to it in terms of like what guides my learning and practices the most is embracing the process of holding myself accountable for the ways that I’ve misstepped, right? I think that humility has been one of those things that has guided me the most. You know, we all start out young and excited. We think we know everything. And I think having those wise teachers who are coming before us, right? And I just saw, you know, a message in the chat from a colleague where we went to grad school together and I think it’s a lifelong journey. And anytime I believe I know what I’m doing and how to really think about how to operationalize data sovereignty, then I remind myself that I don’t, because there have been multiple points in time that I have. And I think that it’s always good for us to really keep in mind that we have all of these seasoned experts who can guide us, but we also have an entire generation of youth who have never had to think about it in terms of an academic exercise and they’re just doing it. And so, for me, I’m always looking to those who have come before me who have taught me what I know, right? And some of those folks are on this webinar in some way, here or later, right? But also I think about all of the people I don’t know. You know, I went into this field because I was so frustrated with the ways that our students were being characterized, the deficit models that people spoke about. And, you know, the violence in our schools that I just didn’t see.
What I saw were these incredibly brilliant youth who had big dreams, and we simply needed to create pathways to help them get there. And I love the fact that this whole concept of data sovereignty, in and of itself, has provided us a separate type of pathway to tell those stories that help them get to where they’re going. And it’s really created a movement that I love being a part of. And whether that’s just from disaggregating by tribe or whether that’s thinking about how to think about variables differently, if it’s a strength-based close to evaluation. All of these different ways of thinking about it, you know, I think, like Jerad said, it’s what we’ve always done. You know, we’ve always made decisions based on data and now we’ve learned how to translate that into two separate languages. So if we’re trying to advocate in this world, we can do this. If we’re trying to operate in this realm, we can do this. And if we’re operating in tribal communities that are so much different from our own, we can do that, right? Because that stepping back from essentializing is also stepping back from saying, I’m Indigenous and I do Indigenous data sovereignty, therefore I know what’s best for all tribes, right? Because it’s not true. And sometimes it’s not even true of your own tribe. And so, I think humility is one of those things that has been the best teacher and it’s difficult to acquire.
And I’m just really thankful to get to work kind of in a space with people who also understand that where, you know, we had joked a little bit earlier, like this is kinda like a family reunion when you get NIEA and WestEd together on webinars like this. But some of us have really literally grown up with one another or been mentored by, or been raised by right people who are also on this call. And I think that it’s a tremendous asset to recognize the ability to connect with those people and then to also think about the people that we aren’t having represented here. So who are the experts within our communities, who are not academics, who are not educators, who can still inform us in ways that we haven’t thought about. And so kind of balancing that, right? I think this is an important piece there. Not assuming you know so much that there’s nothing left to learn, but also not being afraid to share your gifts simply because you don’t feel like you know enough. And I think when we can strike a balance there and create these communities that allow us to learn from one another, we all benefit pretty significantly.
Daphne Littlebear:
Thank you so much, Dr. Mackey. I appreciate that. Those humbling words about, you know, so many years in the field and still, you know, humbled by the many lessons that we learned from our young folks, our young people, our elders, even our colleagues, and thinking about how to continue to push against this narrative that was forced onto us. When I think about that, I think about some of the policy changes that are happening in like different local hubs. I want to take particularly like the Pueblo of Jemez in New Mexico. They have unifiedly created collaboration among the BIE public school, private school, and charter to fall under an umbrella of guidance under the Tribal Education Department of Jemez Pueblo. And they’re working collaboratively to think about what does Native success look for their students and their particularly area and start doing the advocacy at the state level.
Again, looking at Hawaii and pushing back on the narrative of not just translating state assessments into Native language, but looking at the content areas. And then also, as far as parents in the area, advocating their individual parent rights to refuse their children to take state assessments, and what does that do. So again, different forms of advocacy at parent, tribal education level, national level, and so I move to my next question. “As you have built partnerships in this work, what advice do you have for tribal leaders and advocates in other states who are working to transform data practices and policies?” And I’ll go ahead and mix it up here. I’m going to go with you, Dr. Hollie. We’ll give you this one.
Hollie J. Mackey:
Cool. I feel like that was just your way of giving Jerad the last word though, right? I have a lot of advice, right? I’ve been doing this for, you know, 20 years now, which is, you know, 20 years less than some on this call and maybe 19 years more than some on this call. But I think when it comes to tribal leaders, one of the things that I really think about is not just who are the current tribal leaders, right, elected, but who are potential tribal leaders in the future. And then understanding who are the tribal leaders in the community that are not elected. Because in the tribal communities, with the election and with turnover, right, you can’t build coalitions that are going to fracture and change, right? Every two to four years. And so what I do is really get into communities and work with people to understand who are the official leaders, but then who are the unofficial leaders and who has that sustainability, that longevity to keep the movement going forward with or without any particular elected leader being on board. And that isn’t to discount the importance of tribal leaders, right? Elected officials I think are very, very important, right?
But also for those who have been in those roles, it’s a steep learning curve. And if you’re in a two-year term, by the time you finally figure out what’s going on, right, you might be up for your second term. And so we need to have those bridge people who can keep the work going and can bring elected leaders into those spaces. So I’ve worked in the policy realm for a long time, and I don’t think policy solves our problems. And I know it’s not necessarily a popular stance to take, right? Like policy is a guiding framework and there are so many ways to work in and around policy, and we’ve seen this, right? We’ve seen this over and over and over again, the ways that policy is intended to help, right, actually didn’t help us. And so I think that the data practices are the pieces that are important, particularly as it relates to the ways that we can help tribal leaders, whether formal or informal, understand just how much control they have, where we’ve all been conditioned to believe over time that there is some power over us when a federal agency reaches out or a state agency reaches out, or somebody writing a really big grant reaches out. And the truth is, they don’t.
They don’t have that power over us. And quite practically, when you think about the return on investment, it’s negligible in most instances, right? And so I think working with tribal leaders, both formal and informal, to think about the ways on the front end, if approached by this entity or this organization, how should we respond and what are our standard operating procedures as it relates to data collection, data analysis, the types of datas, the way that it’s going to be shared. And then tying that by the tribal IRB process, whatever that looks like, and whatever it’s titled by any sort of organization, whether that’s through the tribal college that’s running or through the tribal government itself, and to create those checks and balances that hold people accountable because, you know, regardless of how well-intentioned people are, once projects get going or once research gets going, it just kind of snowballs, right? And we lose sight of it. So even people who have pretty decent approaches to these practices can get so wrapped up in the day-to-day that they lose sight of what’s happening, or you bring new partners on, or you know, just different things can happen. And I think to advocate for like relationships early first, right? Sustainable data-based relationships that can bridge elected leaders, right? And then finding those champions and being smart about who we’re electing, right?
There’s a lot of people who know a lot about data sovereignty, we just don’t ask them. And then by the time we get around to asking them, like they’ve served their term or they’re moving on or they’ve left an organization. And so I think it goes back to my original stance is that, you know, exercising data sovereignty is an exercise of nation-building. And as an exercise of nation-building, it all has to be predicated on those relationships and starting soon, right? And then ensuring that you are acting as a good relative, right? Because I’ve seen many Native people who will get in these spaces and also lose sight of what they’re supposed to be doing and holding one another accountable in respectful ways, right? Because I believe we all want to do what’s best, but oftentimes we get sidetracked or we get distracted by whatever is shiny and glittery, right? Like hanging out in the air. And I think if you have those foundations of relationship first, where you’re not always then trying to build trust as part of the process of advocating for or operationalizing data sovereignty policies, then you’re ahead of the game. And it really creates sort of some bumpers that allow you to make mistakes in a way that you can recover without derailing entire projects or without derailing entire initiatives that are intended to advance tribal sovereignty or without unintentionally causing harm to communities that you were intending to help. And I think that that has to be a foundational piece to that is, you know, it’s bigger than us.
The accountability to others is bigger than us. The responsibility is bigger. And these are the conversations I have oftentimes, particularly because I work with so many non-Native funders where I have to be able to go back into ceremony in these communities. I have to be able to go to NIEA and hold my head up high and look people in the eye and say, “I really did do the best that I can.” It’s not a matter of something failing, and then I can just move on to something else, right? The personal relationships are far more valuable. The responsibility to those who taught us how to walk in these spaces matters. And our responsibility then for those who are coming behind us also matters. And it has to be this continuing relationship building where you’re bringing new people in, right, and allowing other people to have access into those spaces as well. And I think that that’s really the key to this.
Jerad Koepp:
I think most people would agree with me and say, just keep going. Like, we just listen to you all day. Yeah, ditto. Well, first off, we don’t need solving, fixing, and our savior dance cards are full. So we’re not looking for people to come in and fix stuff, and refusal on our behalf doesn’t have to really mean anything other than it’s like, we’re not interested. But honoring that refusal is important. And I’m thinking about, like, the way that I kind of approach the work, and I was just thinking, we had a guest teacher in our Native Studies program last week, and she was talking about when making cattail mats. She had been learning and she’d been wondering how did they finish the edge of these mats. And it wasn’t until she spent all this time getting really close, trying to figure it out, demonstrating all of it before an elder finally said like, “Come here, I’ll show you.” I feel like that kind of echoes what Hollie was saying. Like, do the work, show up with something to show that you are invested, that you’re willing to say, “Hey, this is what we have. What aren’t we seeing? What don’t we know? What do we have to go back and learn more about? How much more do we need to be, you know, in the community? And, you know, a big approach that I’ve been taking to the data recently, I’ve been having this idea of adultism on my brain a lot.
And it’s like, I work in education and we make all these decisions and usually, whenever a student is involved in something with school leadership, it’s generally performative rather than like us following them. And so I’ve been spending more time like pulling groups of our Native students together to look at like attendance data and to look at district surveys and just like, are we even asking the right questions? And usually, it’s not. And a lot of the times, the questions we ask are there to drive our own agenda, whether we know it or not. And our students are the ones we show up to work for every single day. And because they come from such a diverse representation of Native backgrounds, each one is going to have a unique cultural perspective. You know, 92% of our kids attend public schools and over 75% of us are urban. All of us need to be conscious about like the accuracy of the representation that we’re trying to engage in. But I have to say, like, we’re pretty fortunate, like we’ve done so much work. I feel confident in saying we have like a really privileged level of trust with our local tribe, you know, and so we can do the work and bring it to them and we ask questions, they’ll figure it out and make the determinations and what they want to share. And they’ll also tell us if we’re asking the wrong question, which is really great, which is great support for people like me that do what I do. But I feel like there’s another interesting question, well, an idea that I want to throw out to everyone because, you know, I feel like we’re all kind of invested in doing the work because we’re here.
I have like monthly meetings with our data team and our assistant superintendent and they love data and they’re genuinely fascinated by how complex Native data is. So we got the big screens up in the offices, we got multiple spreadsheets, we’re doing pivot tables, all that nerd stuff that we love. And so now we have an interesting problem that we’re running into more and it’s really awesome. What happens if we’re surrounded by allies and accomplices that are all in, that are like, heck yes, let’s do this. And then you’re all working together and you still are pushing a rock up a hill. And that’s kind of where we’re at now. So like we can go so far with the data that our district receives and collects and it’s gotten a lot more accurate, but we will still never pick up the Native students who don’t identify as Native at all. And there’s always quite a few, and there’s lots of reasons for that. So one of the things we’re thinking about doing is like doing an awareness drive. So if you enroll, like, check that box because it makes a difference when we do it for the census, but how do we like inform our families that representation matters and that this district is a safe place, you know, to tell people who you are because we’re trying to serve everyone better.
We’re trying to learn more. But like now, like the problem that we’re running into is like, so you have all these like right people working together for a common goal and now we’re running into the data systems like you have to the state or district, you know, the educational data systems that districts, you know, pay for and stuff like that. They don’t know what to do with us. And so like now, like there’s all these like programs that we don’t have any control over that code us different ways. And so now, it becomes like this really incredible like computer puzzle. Like how can we trick this data system into telling us what we’re looking for? And so, like, this kind of tips into the next question a little bit, but I’m really hopeful and excited about solving like the future problems of what happens when we’re all working together. I just think we’re at the point where we’re challenging the systems that don’t know what to do with our data.
April Kateri Chavez:
That’s fantastic. Thank you so much, Jerad. So we are nearing our time and we want to keep open it up for questions here in a second. But if you wouldn’t mind, Jerad and Hollie, answering in one to two sentences, sharing what your hopes are for the future of Indigenous data sovereignty and governance within Native education.
Hollie J. Mackey:
Yeah, I’ll start ’cause I see Jerad’s thinking. It’s like, “Man, I just dropped all my A-game material in the first answers.” You know, I think, my hope for the future is that we are not having these conversations, right? My hope for the future is that it’s become such a normalized part of the ways that we operate that we don’t have to explicitly call it out any longer. And particularly, as it relates to Native education ’cause I see, you know, there’s a question, at least I see up in there, about data and how do we combat data with data or comments with data. Oh man, I went over two sentences. The way I think about this is like, we don’t want to use data in the same ways that Western sort of educational institutions have used it historically. My goal is that we use it to tell the stories of our people in ways that help make the arguments from a strength-based perspective and allows us to move forward with having truly indigenized our education systems and had that control turn back to us, right?
So we’re not always having to think about how do we maneuver data sovereignty within the space that isn’t ours, right? So my goal would be these conversations are done because we’ve reclaimed that and we’ve all ostensibly agreed in some way that we are done playing this negative data game, and we are now moving into a space to where we have fully reclaimed in the same ways that we are reclaiming language, in the same ways that we’re reclaiming ceremony, in the same ways that we’re reclaiming all of the Indigenous lifeways that we’re trying to build back into our communities.
Jerad Koepp:
Does it count if I use a sentence with a whole bunch of commas like a Russian novel. I just did. There was only one period in mine. Semicolons. Semicolons.
Hollie:
There you go. Yeah, I agree. It would be, I long for a world where our presence and our knowledge is just normalized. I look forward to a time when our people aren’t deconstructed to a point where they’re just pixels and that we can look at the whole picture by bringing our data back into healing and reconstituting our people and our communities as we’ve always been working to try to do. I think my dream for the future is that we become liberated from Western academic standards ’cause we are rather chained to them. You know, instead of white papers, I want to be writing red papers. I want to visualize data that is entirely Indigenous-driven. That other systems, like, this is the standard of the work. And then they have to figure out what it means and how to apply it. Whenever you refuse, you assert an alternative. And so I hope that through our continued assertion of sovereignty, we continue to assert the Indigenous alternative to help drive the work for the future.
April Kateri Chavez:
Thank you so much. I’m so grateful for your responses and filling the space with all of your amazing hard work. So we have about a good three minutes for questions. We have a few questions in the chat, so I’m going to defer to my colleague Niki to pose some of those questions to our wonderful panelists. Niki?
Niki Sandoval:
Thank you so much. And actually, Dr. Mackey, you addressed the questions beautifully in your last comments. In fact, someone in the chat said you’ve really dropped some gems today. So thank you so much. If there is a final word that you have, Dr. Mackey or Jerad, before we wrap up today, would love to open that up right now.
Hollie J. Mackey:
Yeah, I don’t have final words ’cause I want to make sure we have enough time for our closing speaker, but certainly open, like reach out to us, like, I would love to have a conversation. I’m on social media, [email protected]. Always, always willing to have great conversations with folks.
April Kateri Chavez:
Thank you so much.
Jerad Koepp:
Ditto. For the sake of time, just add a .com, like I’m here for you. I’d say go outside. I’m going to go do a nettle harvest after this. Wherever you are, just go feel the wind.
April Kateri Chavez:
Well, thank you so much. I want to plug the Padlet one more time, and thank you to everyone who did share some amazing resources. We are certainly going to include those into our Padlet, and this is an online learning annex or portal for everyone to engage in. But I also want to thank our panelists. Again, thank you for your expertise, your time and your leadership particularly in this space . I’m so happy to have learned from you all today. So as we move towards the end of our session, I want to thank you all for your participation and certainly invite you to continue this conversation into Session 2. We have our next session scheduled for Wednesday, May 22nd, the same time, so around 2:00 PM Mountain Standard Time. And we are including the registration link here in the chat, and we look forward to seeing you in May.
Niki Sandoval:
Thank you so much, April. And thank you to all of our wonderful partners in making this webinar a possibility. Thank you so much. Before you go, please just take a few moments to complete the evaluation. We really want to hear from you. All of your perspectives inform the planning for our next session. Please scan the QR code here for the evaluation. There’s also a link in the chat and we will send a follow-up. But before you log off today, please just take a few minutes to complete the evaluation. Just a few questions. Okay. Please check the Padlet. We’ve got wonderful resources, and we will continue to add resources that are relevant to this topic of tribal data sovereignty, collection, and governance. We’re so grateful to all of you. Have a healthy and beautiful and joyful day wherever you are in the world, and thank you so much. Have a great day. Take good care.